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Senator Biden says the Saudi government cannot continue in power without U.S. government support.

Senator Biden, Chairman of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was interviewed on the Charlie Rose show broadcast on October 22, 2001 by the PBS network. A transcipt of the entire interview is below.   

During the interview, Senator Biden said that the Saudi government cannot continue in power without U.S. support. Essentially, this means that he agrees with Osama bin Laden's complaints. (Note that this does not justify violence in any way.) Osama bin Laden has said that his principal complaint is that, as a Saudi citizen, he wants to work to change the Saudi government and cannot do so because of U.S. support for what he calls a corrupt regime.

Senator Biden said that the U.S. government supports the Saudi government because the U.S. wants the oil. He said that the U.S. gets 8% of its oil from Saudi Arabia.

The significance of this statement is somewhat hidden. This statement does NOT indicate that the U.S. would have less oil if Saudi Arabia refused to sell oil to the United States. The demand for oil is somewhat stable. The amount of oil produced is somewhat stable. If Saudi Arabia did not sell to the U.S., it would sell its oil to some other country. That other country would then not buy as much oil from its current supplier. The current supplier would then have oil available to sell to the United States. The price would be the current world market price in any case.

So, if Saudi Arabia does not sell oil to the U.S., the amount of oil products available to the U.S. will not change. The only change would be which oil company gets the profit from handling and/or refining the crude oil.

The effect of Senator Biden's statements is that he is saying that the U.S. government keeps the Saudi government in power so that a particular group of people can make more money.

Senator Biden's statements are important because, although there have often been stories that the U.S. government's involvement in the Middle East is guided by oil profits, no top U.S. government leader has indicated this so directly before.

There is a wealth of material connecting U.S. government actions in the Middle East with oil and weapons profits. For example, as is mentioned in a later chapter, oil companies connected with U.S. government leaders want to build a gas pipeline across Afghanistan, but cannot do so until there is a friendly government there. Saudi Arabian leaders are partners in this venture with U.S. investors.

An Oct. 15, 2001 Newsweek article, Why Do They Hate Us? [msnbc.com] says, "... they [Arabs] look at American policy in the region as cynically geared to America's oil interests, supporting thugs and tyrants without any hesitation." [Note that the writer makes the common mistake of confusing oil profits for a particular group with oil itself.]

Senator Biden's statements show that Osama bin Laden's complaints about U.S. interference in Saudi politics are justified. Bin Laden says that's why he decided to wage war on the United States. (Important note: Saying bin Laden's complaints are justified does NOT say that violence is justified.)

In another statement, Senator Biden indicated that the U.S. government has substantial control over the government of Pakistan.

Here is one example of a story that discusses the connection between the U.S. government and oil profits. The November 24, 2000 Guardian Newspaper article, In the grip of vested interests [guardian.co.uk], says:

It isn't America's citizens who want the U.S. to be the dirty man of the planet: it's the oil companies who have captured their democracy.

The Guardian is a large newspaper in England.

Transcript:   The transcript of the relevant part of Senator Biden's remarks is shown below. After the transcript there is further analysis.

Brackets, [ ], in the transcript indicate an explanation by the transcriber. The long dashes, —, indicate a delay in speaking, or a place where a statement ended abnormally.

All syllables have been transcribed. In some cases, misunderstanding a syllable changes the meaning of a sentence. For example, Senator Biden says, "not, uh, likely". It is important to transcribe that syllable correctly because, without good audio equipment, it may sound like he said, "not unlikely", contradicting other things he said in the same statement.

Senator Biden

Charlie Rose: Joining me now, Senator Joe Biden of Delaware. [Senator Biden is from the Democratic Party.] He is the Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee of the United States Senate.

Earlier today, he spoke at the Council on Foreign Relations, and he talked about the coalition and the foreign policy opportunities that may come out of the effort now being made in the war against terrorism. I'm pleased to have him back on this program, and preferring to have him here in New York at this table. Thank you.

Senator Biden: It's nice to be here, Charlie. Thanks for having me. [Senator Biden talks about the change in the relationship between the U.S. government and the Russian government.]

[Elapsed time]

Charlie Rose: —Okay, lemme [let me], lemme, I want to get to that, managing that transition, but lemme stay with this other idea the about the coalition. It's clear, it seems to me, that there's going to be a close scrutiny of the relationship with Saudi Arabia.

Senator Biden: Um-hunh.

Charlie Rose: What dimension does that take?

Senator Biden: There should be a col— Look, the truth of the matter is that— we have— we have known for a long time that the Saudis have been supporting and funding, uh, terrorist individuals, and— what we would consider terrorist individuals and organizations— and these schools, madrassas, they call them—

Charlie Rose: Right.

Senator Biden: — in other parts of the Islamic world that teach Wahabbi Sunni beliefs in the extreme, that carry with it a real hatred of America. Not all Wasabi Sunnis [He said Wasabi, not Wahabbi.] hate America, but— And, um, we've basically rationalized it, Charlie, on two grounds. One, we need their oil. And two, you know, they kind of have to do this to stay in power. They have to sort a, give— you know, pay off the folks or they sic them on somebody else instead of on themselves. I think we've run out of time, Charlie. Um, the extent to which, I believe, you're going to see and learn that the Saudis— and nothing happens in the Saudi family business, the Saudi government— that the Saudis, uh, have supported, um, al Qaeda and bin Laden and others—

Charlie Rose: Is it the government or just wealthy individuals?

Senator Biden: There's no distinction, in my view. It couldn't happen without the government, at least with a wink and a nod. And there — I think you'll see there evidence—

Charlie Rose: Right.

Senator Biden: that, that the family members themselves have, in fact, supported it. But let's assume for the sake of discussion that it's been going on without their knowledge, which I find— I'm incredul— that's not possible. But let's assume for the sake of discussion. We have to now say, "Hey, folks, new world. Let me tell you, you, Saudi Arabia, need us even more than we need you. We get 6, 8, 10 percent of oil from you, it'd be a big deal if we didn't have it. But we do have alternatives. You have no alternatives. You have no alternatives."

Charlie Rose: alternatives from what?

Senator Biden: Alternatives for your continued survival. I can't fathom—

Charlie Rose: In other words, without American—

Senator Biden: Without America, I can't—

Charlie Rose: —support, protection—

Senator Biden: —fathom—

Charlie Rose: —what would happen?

Senator Biden: I think within— within this decade, they're gone, um, as a family. They're gone as the ruling— [a few words, not distinct]

Charlie Rose: But overturned by radical elements or—

Senator Biden: I think so, and maybe even overturned by— [words not distinct]

Charlie Rose: — [words not distinct] Osama's, Osama bin Laden's goal in the first place.

Senator Biden: By the way— that's been his, that was his goal. So I guess what I'm trying to say to you is this, that I think that this is a time for us to have what they, what the, what the diplomats, what Richard Holbrooke would say, if he were here— a "frank discussion."

Charlie Rose: Laughs. [words indistinct]

Senator Biden: I think we should have a plain old frank discussion with them and say, "It's got to stop. This has to stop. You can't play both sides of the street anymore. September 11th changed the world. You got to stop." And it's going to be hard.

Charlie Rose: Why is it going to be hard?

Senator Biden: Because I think they are so invested and are so convinced that their ability to survive is to placate their most radical elements in Islam that they're going to conclude that they're— we're making them make a choice about their own survival. I would argue— and I never tell another man his politics— I would argue that their survival rests upon not continuing to nurture these kinds of operations. Um, and uh, you know, uh, there, there's a lot of things we're gonna have to take a look at. Um, the idea that we are not going to be promoting liberalization— not in the sense of liberal-conservative here— [not using the meaning typical in the U.S.] but liberalization and the expansion of opportunity in the societies in the Islamic world, particularly in the Arab Islamic world, I think would be against our own naked self-interest and against the interests of the very people we think we are concerned, we are concerned about. Um, and uh, but that's going to be a hard sell, Charlie. It's a hard sell. I mean, uh, old habits die slowly. And uh, so I— to answer your question in a word, yes—

Charlie Rose: [words not distinct].

Senator Biden: —we're going to have to see some changes.

Charlie Rose: uh, and maybe others.

Senator Biden: Oh, yeah. No, it's not just— but that's the prime player.

Charlie Rose: What's the— I mean, what do we— what's the smart thing to do in terms— let's assume that this war— is— goes on for a while because it has many aspects beyond what happens to Osama bin Laden and Taliban and Afghanistan, and it has to do with rolling up terrorist organizations around the world, and they exist in Germany and they exist in lots of other places, as we're finding out day by day. Let's assume that— that effort continues. What's— what's the smart thing to do? What does— what stance does America take post— post— con—

Senator Biden: That's— that is the big question. I'm about to tell what I'm confident we should do, but I acknowledge, uh, that, th— this is a place where a good dose of humility is in order about whether we can do it, okay? We can't walk away from the rubble of Afghanistan after we successfully [knocks on the table] [indistinct words] want to say— knock on wood, root out al Qaeda, get bin Laden and overthrow, in effect, the Taliban. [indistinct words] We can't walk away. It is a— it is a smoldering area that has to have a significant amount of help financially, and it should be done multi, multilaterally.

Most people don't realize, in the '50s, for example, in Afghanistan, women attended universities in Afghanistan. Most people don't understand that there was a modicum of, of decentralized but stable environment. There was not this hostile region exporting venom and hate. Um, and so we know, I believe, and I think the president does, as well — we're di— different parties — that we can't let that vacuum stay there.

So the hardest part is going to be, keeping the coalition together to move toward the formation of a coalition government that represents the Pashtun, as well as the Tajiks and Hazaras, as well as the— um, uh, uh, the four main groups in Afghanistan, with some modicum of a possibility of being able to have a state that has things like hospital, water, school, et cetera, schools, et cetera. And, uh, that's a significant long-term investment that we can't— we should be prepared to pay a big chunk, but it can't be us— it, [not distinct] the horse, my grandpop would say, can't carry that sleigh. We can't do that alone.

The second thing I think we have to do, Charlie, is we have to take advantage of a phenomenal opportunity, which relates to what we talked about on the front end of the program, uh, we, you and me, and that is that there's opportunities, as they say, to turn lemons into lemonade here. We have altered— we have an opportunity with this sort of shifting of relationships a little bit to turn the relationship with Russia on a much more positive course, even with Iran, move toward a better relationship with China, which we already see, in my view. For example, I was on your show not too many months ago, when we were talking about is the relationship going south?

Charlie Rose: Right. Exactly.

Senator Biden: And then remember Powell went over, and several of us went—

Charlie Rose: Right.

Senator Biden: And, uh, so there's a way to do that. There's a way to continue to better— now, the big— the big sticking point is gonna be [going to] you can not let Pakistan fall. You can not have the— the— the— a Taliban-type force in control of Pakistan. They are five, six, seven times as large as Afghanistan, they have nuclear weapons, and they have a relationship with the second largest country in the world that is incre— incredibly volatile. I compliment Powell. Powell went over, sort of calmed down the nerves a little bit—

Charlie Rose: —And stopped in India on the way back.

Senator Biden: And then went to India— Well, you have to— And so we got to play in that, as well. And the last thing we have to do, I think, is to build a consensus against Saddam Hussein in a way where we have smart sanctions, where everybody has to rethink it.

Case in point: We moved toward smart sanctions. Russia put the kibosh on it. Russia's owed a lot of money from the uh, from the uh, uh, Iraqis. Russia wanted to sort of poke a stick in our eye when we were being the unilateral guy telling them what to do. France saw a significant opportunity there economically. Nine eleven [September 11] changed everything. Now's the time to be sitting down with the Russians, saying, "Look, here's the deal. We want your help and support on Pakistan"— I mean, on— on, on, on Iraqi sanctions that are real. In return, we will see to it that out of oil revenues, you get paid the money you owe [you're owed], et cetera. I mean, there's— there are so many opportunities. What the exact formula will be I don't know.

Charlie Rose: But, but there's going to be a debate in the United States as to what should be done in terms of— if, if the war effort— you got all those men and material over there— as to whether they should do—

Senator Biden: Well, that's why I think—

Charlie Rose: — as, as they say, "finish the job."

Senator Biden: Right. That's why I think what we should be doing is we should be talking now, as I'm hopeful we are, with the major partners here about what do we do relative to Iraq? If we were to, Charlie, successfully prosecute the effort in Afghanistan and then summarily turn and move against Iraq unilaterally, I think the coalition bursts apart like— and I don't mean just the Islamic portion of the coalition. I mean the whole coalition breaks. But I think if we do this well, and we're capable of doing it, we can essentially tighten the noose around Saddam Hussein's neck so that when he does genuinely step out of line next time, we will either have the ability to move in with or without others, but with the support of the rest of the world, like we're doing now in Afghanistan.

Charlie Rose: Do you believe— have you seen any evidence, as Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, that you can talk about, that Iraq somehow is connected to bio-terrorism?

Senator Biden: There is no question that Iraq is engaged in bio-research, bio-terrorism activities that, uh, present the opportunity for them to be connected. It is, uh, we may be able to make a tenuous— a, a tenuous case down the road a little bit, [tenuous means "having little substance, flimsy"] but one of the things the rest of the folks in the region know is al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden hate Saddam Hussein. He is a secular leader. He is not someone who— They do not view the existence of that regime as legitimate relative to their notion of this Islamic world they want to see. And so, it's kind of a hard sell to sell in that area of the world the idea that you have these two folks who don't like each other very much operating hand in glove—

Charlie Rose: Yeah but—

Senator Biden: even though they have a common—

Charlie Rose: but having said that, I mean, is it still possible that anthrax somehow could have come from—

Senator Biden: I can speak to that because I've not been recently, in the last two days, briefed on it— [Senator Biden means that, if he had more information, it would probably be secret, and therefore he could not talk about it.]

Charlie Rose: All right, tell me.

Senator Biden: —so I'm not— And, uh, I think that it is possible, not uh, likely.

Charlie Rose: Do you believe that the anthrax attacks were from some organized terrorist effort — al Qaeda or someone else?

Senator Biden: Part of me says — and I have been briefed on this and the answer is we don't now. Or at least unless something happened in the last 24 hours and I'm unaware of it.

Charlie Rose: We do not know.

Senator Biden: We do not know.

Charlie Rose: And, and there, there's no way—

Senator Biden: And there's hopeful we will be able to find out. Part of me says I hope it is al Qaeda, because if it's al Qaeda, then we should take some reassurance from the fact that if they're sending this in envelopes and through post offices it is not nearly as, uh, um, pernicious as it could be. Um, the reason I think that it's equally as likely it is some home grown outfit or some other outfit than al Qaeda is because in one sense it's fairly ham-handed. Um, in one sense it's fairly rudimentary. Now I know— I'm not belittling the fact that two postal workers died. I don't have the detail on that. My guess is they had been infected without knowing it for a long time. Um, but, uh, the truth of the matter is that it is frightening, but if you notice the American public is sort of gaining their equilibrium on this. The more they learn about it, the more they know about it, the more they're assured and believe that the uh, un, the public health system is aware of how to determine whether or not, uh, you've been exposed. And the notion that, uh, antibiotics will in fact have a 100 percent cure rate if it's the kind on your skin. [cough] If you get it within several days or up to a week, uh, um, uh, they will take care of the kind that's inhaled as well. Um, and uh, and so, um, that makes me think there is, a, uh, um, at least a, um, a significant possibility that it is, um, uh, beyond, uh, um, the purview of al Qaeda.

Charlie Rose: Senator Joe Biden, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. My thanks.

Senator Biden: Thanks a lot, Charlie.

Charlie Rose: Come back any time. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

The above interview with Senator Biden is valuable partly because it gives an accurate idea of the thinking of top leaders of the United States government. Note that Senator Biden presumes that the U.S. government will have a huge amount of power over the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia.

Notice that Senator Biden says, "... I believe, and I think the president does, as well..." Then, later, he says, "... we should be talking now, as I'm hopeful we are..."

These statements are valuable insights into the operation of the U.S. government, and of the U.S. culture. Senator Biden genuinely does not know what the president of the U.S. thinks, or is doing. This kind of separation and lack of cooperation is a common occurrence. Even though Senator Biden is chairman of one of the most important groups that plans U.S. foreign policy, information is not necessarily shared with him.

Order a video copy or transcript.    The transcript of Senator Biden's comments presented above is one made by the author of this book. Statements made by public employees about their official duties are not copyrightable and are freely available to anyone.

Those needing to verify the transcript presented here may order a copy of the video tape from 1-800-ALL-NEWS [800-all-news.com]. The author of this book is not connected in any way whatsoever with the supplier of video copies or transcripts. The video tape is available as The Charlie Rose Show #3057 (Oct. 22, 2001) for $32.95 for delivery "in 3-5 weeks", $47.95 for delivery in 1 week, or $57.95 for delivery in 2 days.

An e-mail or printed transcript of the Charlie Rose show is also available. The company wants $14 to deliver a transcript by e-mail, and they say they require 10 hours to send it. A transcript delivered to the author of this book carried a warning message that began: "This transcript has not been checked against videotape..." The transcript had significant errors, making it essentially worthless to someone concerned about the exact details of what was said.

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